NA NA NA NA NA- I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU!!!

Daniel: man I just started my paper and I am so tired right now me: Daniel: also, I hate the smiles in gaim me: i am tired too i just wrote an awesome short short Daniel: sweet Sent at 5:18 pm on Tuesday me: i was in the process of sending it to my cohorts, so i added you on djestrada Sent at 5:20 pm on Tuesday Daniel: haha, you are so bitter Sent at 5:23 pm on Tuesday Daniel: man, I'd really like that tonkatsu tonight Sent at 5:26 pm on Tuesday me: shall we have dinner or do you not have time? Daniel has taken this chat off the record (from now on, chats with Daniel will not be saved in your Gmail account or Daniel's) Learn more Cancel This chat is no longer off the record me: off the record? eh? what? Daniel: I was just testing that out it doesn't log the convo I'd like to make you food, but it would have to be after 8 I already told a student I'd be here until 7 to ad­min­is­ter a make up exam me: that is fine by me i need to get some work done or sleep or something i have breakfast with audrey at 10am tomorrow at courier Daniel: ok me: that short short is good sure, it's a draft and needs work, but it's fucking good Sent at 5:30 pm on Tuesday Daniel: good in concept or ex­e­cu­tion? Sent at 5:31 pm on Tuesday me: concept and the execution is half there do you disagree? Daniel: no but I can see a lot of the same cri­ti­cisms coming back up "loose metaphor with no ground­ing..." etc me: those critics are without merit it is exactly those critics i am writing against with this piece jesus christ that is just DW he is no fucking authority Daniel: well, but you are wearing the metaphor on your sleeve me: so what? what sort of criticism is that? Daniel: um... so if I were to ask "whats the point" in response to your story, how would you respond? me: the point is that con­form­ity has a price it doesn't have to directly relate to workshop education in general also applies as well as other things Daniel: but, see, you cast yourself as a plant. a plant doesn't do anything you are shaped into con­form­ity, but that wasn't something you did, or even that you reacted against it was something that just happened to you it makes it hard to sym­path­ize, or see the end result as 'tragic' or whatever a bunch of nameless, faceless people picking at your mo­tion­less form... All you do is whine "ow, that hurts" me: shut up Daniel: so again, whats the point? no, I am trying to be con­struct­ive I'm not trying to be mean me: you are mar­gin­al­iz­ing me Daniel: no, I'm not I'm reading what you put in the story me: you have your ideas about what fiction should do Daniel: ? me: you are asking me what the point is Daniel: no, I'm just telling you what you put in the story me: look at the way you phrase is I "whine" so i am telling you what you put in your cri­ti­cisms of my work Daniel: cri­ti­cisms aren't personal attacks, harmony you don't need to get defensive I asked "whats the point", because I was hoping youd start ex­plain­ing the point but ex­plain­ing the point is just to say exactly what happens in the story and it doesn't run anywhere other than just what is on the page "you build me up, you hurt me, and now I'm just like everything else you keep around" there's nothing behind it, informing how we should un­der­stand the piece. there is no voice. its just style. me: you are wrong you are wrong and it is hard to talk to you because you are wrong and because you put yourself up as an authority and then you talk about my piece and my narrator as if they are me you say "you you you" and then tell me it is not an attack you read it one way and don't even look for alternate readings because you are reading the cannon and i am writing against the cannon it is hard to talk to you because you are doing to me exactly what other people are doing to me that is driving me insane Daniel: I dont know what that means, and you are still being de­fens­ive. In that last block of cri­ti­cisms I didn't refer to you once me: you aren't par­tic­u­larly well read, and i don't say that as an insult, it is just a fact, but then you think you can somehow read my pieces without even trying Daniel: why are you being so de­fens­ive? me: All you do is whine "ow, that hurts" because i'm fucking defensive Daniel: I mean you as the 'I' character in the story me: because i'm being attacked Daniel: no, I'm not attacking you me: that is the narrator, that is not me i am being attacked in my program and you keep treating me in exactly the ways i tell you other people are hurting me i tell you, "david did and said this" and then you defend his position his position is wrong it's a method of keeping me mar­gin­al­ized whether he is conscious of that or not he is being a "typical man" in his responses and so are you Daniel: come on, harmony you are being defensive so you don't have to address the criticism and you start attacking the person making the criticism my criticism is just this: there is no voice, it is just style that only applies to this nursery story I thought your other stories had some voice. the cutter story had some really strong voices, for instance I'm just saying that I don't see that in this story me: how is there no voice? what does that even mean? Daniel: there is no per­spect­ive informing the piece the narrator isn't a person both literally and nar­rat­ively me: you are wrong you are ignorant and wrong Daniel: well, then tell me what I'm missing dont just say I am wrong me: the whole piece is a metaphor Daniel: well, yeah. I mean, I got that point me: i don't see how you can say there is no per­spect­ive i don't know what that means and i don;t know why if it is true there isn't one, why that matters to the piece instead of looking at what is there, you are looking at what is not there and i can't un­der­stand ap­proach­ing a story that way you are showing some of your as­sump­tions about what SHOULD be in a piece of fiction but not really, i don't know all of your as­sump­tion­s, only whatever you chose to point out that is somehoe missing you read my work and look for what is missing instead of what is there and that is what i find offensive Daniel: no, thats not true me: you didn't say, ok, there is no per­spect­ive, so what is this piece trying to do? you say, haha, you're bitter Daniel: oh, I was referring to your email there me: ok Daniel: well, what the piece was doing was obvious. I mean, the metaphor couldn't have been any clearer. me: but somehow you see it as a failure Daniel: so then you ask: what is the writer trying to get across with this take on the con­form­ity idea? but then there are no unique per­spect­ives taken on the idea con­form­ity is a bad thing that the narrator is helpless against me: the narrator is not helpless the mimosa left the narrator was com­pla­cent this is the mistake people make who know me about my work i know you fucking assumed the willow was somehow me so you read it like it's me so it;s just whining and com­plain­ing Daniel: when did I do that? me: you don't see any com­plex­ity in the ideas i'm working with Daniel: no, its that you aren't putting the com­plex­ity there you are leaving it implied me: man, you kept saying "you" to refer to the narrator Daniel: in the back­ground me: good god, daniel, fiction is about the implicit Daniel: sure, sure but you have to give us something to work with me: you assume that i haven't again and again Daniel: well, then tell me what I am missing you still haven't done that me: there are a couple things at work one is the idea that other people can somehow make you better than you are one is that com­plex­ity is somehow a bad thing that clarity and form are always the standard that there is some ideal we should aim for Daniel: ok, but this is all at work on the surface of the story. Where is the reader supposed to stop and think about what you are writing, or to make some new con­nec­tion between these strands of though? thats what I mean by 'per­spect­ive' you aren't giving any take on these matters me: why is it necessary that i should? you claim it is all on the surface, i'm not so sure i am telling it fable style oh, christ, fuck me, how dare i work in an outdated form???? Daniel: even a fable has a "stop and con­tem­plate" moment. I'm not sure what I should be con­tem­plat­ing after reading this me: ok, then what does the last line mean? hurry up! Daniel: or if your (the writer's) view is any deeper than the "con­form­ity=bad" me: this takes no con­tem­pla­tion Daniel: um, that all the others have been shaped just like you me: NO that is not the last line Daniel: hmm ok, thats a good line me: see, now, let me stop being defensive and you too for a minute and stop and think about how you responded to this piece because you know me and you know what i've been pissed about and how you read su­per­fi­ci­al­ity onto it when maybe it is actually doing a little more than you thought at first glance you have certain ex­pect­a­tions when you read that you bring to bear when you talk to me about my work Daniel: well, sure me: one of them is that you expect good fiction to be something you haven't already thought of, ie, something presented in a new way that makes you think Daniel: not ne­ces­sar­ily something that is emo­tion­ally gripping doesn't need to be new, really me: the point i've been trying to make in my rants at you about the in­ad­equacy and ter­rible­ness of workshop is that ap­proach­ing another person's writing that way is un­pro­duc­tu­ive and possibly hurtful well, you had said before that's what you expect Daniel: and something can be new and thought­ful in an old style me: and i am pissed off and defensive because of how people are ap­proach­ing my work and writing it off you didn't have a damn thing to say to me about "hungry" and that hurt Daniel: well, sure harmony, but if I am chal­len­ging you and missing some crucial aspect, don't get personal and de­fens­ive. Defend the story on its merits me: well, sure daniel, but if you are ap­proach­ing me in a "defend your story to me because i think it sucks" mode, then i can't help but get defensive Daniel: you know, you accuse everyone of attacking you per­son­ally, but you do put so much of yourself right into your work... me: so fucking what? Daniel: I didnt have anything to say about letter either me: every writer puts herself in her work because i am louder and more opin­ion­ated that gives people a right to attack me per­son­ally? Daniel: well, but you can't blame us for confusing the narrator and you no, thats not what I am saying me: no, that is what you're saying that is what everyone but david and eve have been saying since i got here and i'm fucking sick of it Daniel: see, now you are attacking me you are making it a personal thing about the people who talk about your work me: it is a personal thing i'm just saying that you wrote what you were thinking then realized it didn't look good so you wanted to take it back and i am saying that is exactly the problem and that is how i am con­stantly ap­proached david keeps talking about it when i go out with him (my friend david coyoca) it was something that was bugging me but that i hadn't managed to pinpoint he sees other people do that to me and it pisses him off you are stepping all over me while i am sensitive Daniel: well, yeah, thats not fair to you or your story me: have i pretended to be anythiung but really defensive and angry and hurt right now? i am already really fucking upset about how i'm being treated, and you don't seem to see where you are in­ad­vert­antly doing the same things to me that others are doing i keep trying to show you, but friend, you get just as defensive as i do Daniel: I'm trying to be con­struct­ive me: i know you are, but it's the way you're going about it that isn't con­struct­ive Daniel: no, I'm not being de­fens­ive. I'm trying to keep the con­ver­sa­tion focused on your work, and you keep pulling it away from your work me: you've appealed to the fact that this is how you approach philo­sophy papers, and i keep trying to say that is not the right way to approach someone's ficiton Daniel: well, but I don't have any stake in this matter, so you can use me to get at what is really going on when people make these stupid cri­ti­cisms me: because my concern is not my work but how my work is being ap­proached i guess that is where we keep missing each other Daniel: but listen, i do think it would be at least a good exercise to dis­as­so­ci­ate yourself from your work a bit not in the sense of themes or topics, but in the su­per­fi­cial aspects me: i am trying to tell you "I don't want people to talk about my stories this way" and you keep saying, "now, let me talk about your story that way, let's focus here, harmony, here are the prob­lem­s..." and i say, "No, i don't want people to approach my work that way" and you say "Quit getting defensive and show me how your story is not fucked up the way i think it is" do you un­der­stand now? do you un­der­stand the point i am trying to make and how you keep making it worse when you are trying to be helpful? i know you are trying to be helpful, and that is why i am trying so hard not to get angry with you because i know you are just not un­der­stand­ing what i am saying to you Daniel: well, then I don't want to read your stories any more because I am just giving you my reaction to them, and you don't seem to want my reaction me: i don't see where you un­der­stood what i said Sent at 6:21 pm on Tuesday Daniel: you send me a story and I say "here's what I get out of it", and you respond "you are wrong and stupid and ig­nor­ant", and I ask "well, what am I missing", and you just talk about how everyone else is making the same stupid ignorant mistake I'm making Daniel: its like none of this has anything to do with your stories its like you aren't in­ter­ested in learning how to develop the style, or hearing what anyone has to say about your work its like you want to write a public diary, where you can say whatever you want, and no one has any claim to object or criticize me: it's not that i don't want your reaction. it's not that i don't think you have good things to say. it's the way you say what you have to say that is hurtful and puts me on the de­fens­ive. see, even know. you still have not heard me at all you haven't heard me you've totally read me wrong when a piece is pub­lished, people can object and criticize all they want when a piece is being created, ob­jec­tions and cri­ti­cisms are not really ap­pro­pri­ate telling and author what you see in a piece and asking them questions can help them better un­der­stand what they are trying to do and leave them space to create the piece how they want it telling an author the piece isn't doing what you think it should do shuts the author down and takes away her authority over her own work and if the author is me, it also offends me and pisses me off i keep trying to express this to you, and somehow you keep not getting it so much so that you now accused me of wanting a public diary i am ques­tion­ing the methods used in my program and workshops in general i think they are of­ten­times de­struct­ive rather than pro­duct­ive why can i not ex­per­i­ment with form and style without being told i have turned in rough drafts? that some people have no access? my class­mates all managed to write about my work why is it that my professor could not and felt inclined to lecture and reprimand me? because i have no authority over my own work as far as he is concerned because if it doesn't im­me­di­ately meet his ex­pect­a­tion­s, i must have done something wrong Daniel: well, but you have to take that au­thor­ity, harmony you have to earn it. you dont just get it by [utting your name on the paper you have to show that you are in command of the story saying "there is no per­spect­ive" is another way of saying "no one is in control of this story" some stuff you had good control over your wheaties story, your blogger story me: saying, "I'm not sure what the per­spect­ive is here." lets me keep my authority and explain it telling me i have none has already taken away my authority how can you accuse someone of being defensive while asking them to defend their work? Daniel: because there is a dif­fer­ence between the person and the work and the attacks are directed at the work me: why do you need to attack? \what gives anyone the right to attack? look at the language you are using this is what i am fighting against Daniel: thats philo­sophy language "cri­tique" or something might be better analyze in the plant story, it was more than "I'm not sure" me: do you ever question the language you use and the values it implies? Daniel: you were explicit in the story of failing to give anyone any per­spect­ive the narrator was a plant me: and once again, i want to know why that is a problem? Daniel: the keepers were all faceless, name­less... me: moreso, i want to know why you are clinging to a right to tear down a writer under the guise of being helpful? Daniel: I have to work harmony me: why can't you hear me? why can't you hear me? am i mute? am i speaking in tongues? what is this gap between my mouth and your ears? i don't un­der­stand is it that you so need to be right? i don't even know Sent at 6:34 pm on Tuesday

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