i'm a pretentious asshole

For reference:
Sterling's Brilliant Story


(13:51:04) HappyEpsilon: you sir, have no taste in fiction
(13:51:15) Dr Crawl: did you read the whole story?
(13:51:23) HappyEpsilon: fuck no, why would i?
(13:51:27) HappyEpsilon: that excerpt was terrible
(13:51:38) Dr Crawl: because that passage doesn't make any sense without the whole story
(13:51:42) Dr Crawl: its good, and its pretty short
(13:52:30) HappyEpsilon: oh boy! a morality tale: As potent instruments of teenage social networking, aerosol spray cans have "high abuse potential". So spray cans are among the many things us teenagers can't buy, like handguns, birth control, alcohol, cigarettes and music with curse words.
(13:52:31) HappyEpsilon: YAWN
(13:53:38) Dr Crawl: harmony, you well know that just because you dont find something interesting doesn't mean it isn't any good
(13:53:44) Dr Crawl: you aren't even giving it a shot
(13:53:52) HappyEpsilon: i am, i am reading it
(13:54:02) Dr Crawl: the story has a point
(13:54:03) HappyEpsilon: but it's hard to see something that is so high up on a soapbox
(13:54:15) HappyEpsilon: if you have a fucking point to make, right an essay
(13:54:23) HappyEpsilon: don't even call this a story
(13:54:30) HappyEpsilon: it's a diatribe
(13:54:37) Dr Crawl: no, its not
(13:54:38) Dr Crawl: its a story
(13:54:48) Dr Crawl: dont say anything else until you've read it
(13:54:51) Dr Crawl: its good stuff
(13:54:53) HappyEpsilon: it's a lecture
(13:54:56) HappyEpsilon: i'm reading it
(13:54:59) Dr Crawl: no, no, its not
(13:55:08) Dr Crawl: its not even close to being a lecture
(13:55:10) HappyEpsilon: Right. We teenagers have to live in "controlled spaces". Radio-frequency ID tags, real-time locative systems, global positioning systems, smart doorways, security videocams. They "protect" us kids, from imaginary satanic drug dealer terrorist mafia predators. We're "secured". We're juvenile delinquents with always-on cellphone nannies in our pockets. There's no way to turn them off. The internet was designed without an off-switch.
(13:56:22) HappyEpsilon: These machines are METHODICALLY KILLING OUR SOULS!
(13:56:32) HappyEpsilon: ity. They're digitized! And the networking hardware and software that pervasively surround us are built and owned by evil, old, rich corporate people!
(13:56:50) HappyEpsilon: and seriosuly, if the narrator is so fucking smart, why don't he settle for regular paint and use that to spread his message?
(13:57:17) Dr Crawl: because the narrator is a teenage kid
(13:57:38) Dr Crawl: and he's not 'so fucking smart', he's just a kid
(13:58:02) HappyEpsilon: he claims he's smart
(13:58:14) HappyEpsilon: i thought you loved the internet
(13:58:22) HappyEpsilon: this story is very anit-internet and technology
(13:58:22) Dr Crawl: where does he claim he's smart?
(13:58:26) Dr Crawl: no, its not
(13:58:32) Dr Crawl: see you dont get it
(13:58:54) HappyEpsilon: Me, I had a much higher grade-point average than Ted,
(13:59:10) Dr Crawl: thats not bragging about intelligence at all
(13:59:27) HappyEpsilon: yeah ok, explain this brilliant story to me
(13:59:47) HappyEpsilon: you'll have to remember that i have very little experience or training in this area
(14:00:04) HappyEpsilon: speak to my like i'm 4
(14:00:08) Dr Crawl: I dont have any training whatsoever in this area
(14:00:25) HappyEpsilon: well, at least you "got it" where i apparently utterly failed to "get it"
(14:00:32) HappyEpsilon: so please do, explain away
(14:00:41) Dr Crawl: well, first of all, its absolutely not anti-tech
(14:00:47) Dr Crawl: or anti-internet
(14:01:05) Dr Crawl: I mean, it was technology that allows the kid to relate to shakespear
(14:01:10) Dr Crawl: and thats a big accomplishment
(14:01:35) HappyEpsilon: so then it is anti- what? government? big business? cencorship?
(14:01:39) Dr Crawl: technology is the lens through which the kid relates to his world
(14:01:54) Dr Crawl: thats neither positive or negativce
(14:01:54) HappyEpsilon: no, technology is his world and he's trapped
(14:02:02) Dr Crawl: no, he doesn't feel trapped
(14:02:05) HappyEpsilon: yes he does
(14:02:25) Dr Crawl: he feels trapped by the constant surveillance
(14:02:43) Dr Crawl: and so part of the point is that the structure of the technology quashes even minor rebellions
(14:02:48) Dr Crawl: which the teenagers need
(14:02:59) Dr Crawl: I mean, the point is that he;'s not looking to overthrow the government or anything
(14:03:07) Dr Crawl: he;'s just trying to be a normal teenager
(14:03:18) Dr Crawl: which is why the whole story is awash with angsty teenage diatribes
(14:03:30) Dr Crawl: the last passage is almost directly quoting from a Morissey song
(14:03:38) HappyEpsilon: and he cannot be a normal teenager due to his techological prison
(14:03:49) HappyEpsilon: oh boy! this author is also a plagiarist!
(14:04:10) Dr Crawl: its not plagairism, its a literary allusion
(14:04:17) HappyEpsilon: HAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
(14:04:20) Dr Crawl: come on, you are being a hard ass for no reason
(14:04:20) HappyEpsilon: :lol:
(14:04:29) HappyEpsilon: for a very good reason
(14:04:55) HappyEpsilon: you don't know what good literature is, then you run around reading what you want to into crappy sci fi then say it's great shit
(14:04:59) HappyEpsilon: and as an artist, i take offense
(14:05:13) Dr Crawl: Bruce Sterling posted: why do you access me,
when you know that makes things hard for me?
Why do you tag, and link to me?
Why do you telephone?
And why, why, why do you write me silly notes on paper?
I am so sick of you, Debbie.
Why, why do you hack me?
It is just to see the things that you know I am writing about you...
(14:05:18) HappyEpsilon: this is hardly even a story, and if you want to call it one, fine, but it is a very bad obe
(14:05:22) Dr Crawl: Morrissey posted: Why do you come here
When you know it makes things hard for me ?
When you know, oh
Why do you come ?
Why do you telephone ? (Hmm...)
And why send me silly notes ?
...
You had to sneak into my room
'just' to read my diary
"It was just to see, just to see"
(All the things you knew I'd written about you...)
Oh, so many illustrations
Oh, but
I'm so very sickened
Oh, I am so sickened now
(14:06:03) HappyEpsilon: so you're telling me that i should believe that in 2026 teenagers are listening to Morissey?
(14:06:08) HappyEpsilon: they don't listen to him in 2007
(14:06:11) Dr Crawl: the point is that the story walks a very fine line in discussing the relationship to technology
(14:06:39) Dr Crawl: because you can't pin it down as luddism, but it is still dystopic in a strong sense
(14:06:54) Dr Crawl: and it is talking about that theme through the eyes of a teenager
(14:07:08) HappyEpsilon: no, it's a horror story of how bad technology could turn on us, how far we could go to fuck ourselves and our children with it.
(14:07:19) Dr Crawl: no, its not, though
(14:07:20) HappyEpsilon: typical "message" sci-fi
(14:07:27) Dr Crawl: you are wrong
(14:07:32) HappyEpsilon: you are wrong
(14:07:48) HappyEpsilon: the dude can't go anywhere and do anything
(14:08:06) HappyEpsilon: his father is mia and uses tech-speak and his mother is addicted to onliine gaming
(14:08:08) Dr Crawl: its not that technology 'could' turn on us, because a lot of what he is talking about is already a fact of today's world
(14:08:22) HappyEpsilon: but this is an extreme version
(14:08:36) Dr Crawl: its not terribly extreme, though
(14:08:55) Dr Crawl: but throughout it is this glimmer of how positive the tech is
(14:09:03) HappyEpsilon: oh no, just glide on down the slippery slope and be afraid, be very afraid
(14:09:14) HappyEpsilon: show me
(14:09:40) Dr Crawl: it lets the children relate to each other and to the world (and to shakespeare, for chrissakes) through their relation to technology
(14:10:00) HappyEpsilon: quit fucking getting a hard on about them relating to shakespeare
(14:10:04) HappyEpsilon: many people can
(14:10:16) Dr Crawl: yeah, I'm not saying they can't
(14:10:18) HappyEpsilon: you are so reading what you want to read onto this
(14:10:21) Dr Crawl: but its an important part of the story
(14:10:36) HappyEpsilon: they are prisoners who all identify with an aspect of their prison
(14:10:47) HappyEpsilon: i see no reason to believe that is saying technology was helpful
(14:10:47) Dr Crawl: he says that macbeth is meaningful to them, but in a way that the teachers dont understand
(14:10:52) Dr Crawl: or otherwise they wouldn't teach it
(14:11:16) Dr Crawl: man
(14:11:17) HappyEpsilon: but he doesn't say that to say technology is good and beneficial
(14:11:27) Dr Crawl: every time I show you something I like you immediately get defensive
(14:11:30) HappyEpsilon: he says it to show how they are trapped
(14:11:36) HappyEpsilon: i'm being quite reasonable now
(14:11:39) Dr Crawl: and start attacking me before you even try to form your own honest opinion
(14:11:43) HappyEpsilon: i was being a dick, but i want you to prove your poinit
(14:11:49) HappyEpsilon: because i think you're very wrong
(14:12:01) HappyEpsilon: i have an honest opinion
(14:12:05) Dr Crawl: I'm not saying that the theme is original
(14:12:09) HappyEpsilon: this is bad soap-box sci-fi with a message
(14:12:14) Dr Crawl: or that this is the most brilliant piece of sci fi ever written
(14:12:21) HappyEpsilon: it's not even good
(14:12:21) Dr Crawl: its not soap box at all
(14:12:31) Dr Crawl: I think it is far more subtle than you are giving it credit for
(14:12:37) HappyEpsilon: OMG
(14:12:41) HappyEpsilon: :nyd:
(14:12:54) HappyEpsilon: i think you are terribly underread and don't know what you're talking about
(14:13:07) Dr Crawl: thats an ad hom
(14:13:23) HappyEpsilon: as soon as we got to the meat and i asked you to prove your point, you changed the subject to me and my reaction rather than proving your point
(14:13:32) HappyEpsilon: not really
(14:13:35) Dr Crawl: yes
(14:13:52) HappyEpsilon: if you started saying dumb shit about string theory, someone could rightfully point out that you don't know what you're talking about
(14:14:08) HappyEpsilon: it's not subtle
(14:14:14) HappyEpsilon: that is what i'm saying
(14:14:18) HappyEpsilon: it is not subtle at all
(14:14:32) HappyEpsilon: and you're hte one misinterpretting the "story" to make it what you want it to be
(14:14:40) HappyEpsilon: i see my students do this shit all the timke
(14:14:50) Dr Crawl: it is subtle, as evidenced by thefact that you dont see the positive aspects of the tech shinning through the piece
(14:14:54) HappyEpsilon: and they also think bad gimmicks are great sometimes becuase they are horribly underread
(14:15:03) HappyEpsilon: show them to me
(14:15:06) HappyEpsilon: that is not evidence
(14:15:46) HappyEpsilon: saying it's subtle and the proof of its subtley it that i don't get it is an extremely weak position to take
(14:16:05) Dr Crawl: the big proof is in the shakespeare part
(14:16:18) Dr Crawl: which you refuse to accept my interpretation, but I dont know what other interpretation to give it
(14:16:24) Dr Crawl: but its throughout the whole thing
(14:16:25) HappyEpsilon: which we already disagree on, but i'd be willing to hear more of what you think of that
(14:16:30) HappyEpsilon: but show many any other part
(14:16:33) Dr Crawl: its easy to read all the "oh noes technology = bad" stuff
(14:16:37) Dr Crawl: but thats right on the surface
(14:16:44) HappyEpsilon: if it's so fuckinig pervasive, show me an example
(14:16:48) Dr Crawl: and its shadowded by the whole teenage angst stuff
(14:17:03) HappyEpsilon: quit being all general and give me some specifics
(14:17:03) Dr Crawl: I mean, just look at his lines to debbie
(14:17:09) Dr Crawl: Debbie: why do you access me, when you know that makes things hard for me? Why do you tag, and link to me? Why do you telephone? And why, why, why do you write me silly notes on paper? I am so sick of you, Debbie. Why, why do you hack me? It is just to see the things that you know I am writing about you...
(14:17:20) HappyEpsilon: what about them?
(14:17:37) Dr Crawl: his whole relationship to her is reinterpreted in terms of technology
(14:17:39) Dr Crawl: of the internet
(14:17:48) Dr Crawl: and thats not a bad thing
(14:18:01) Dr Crawl: thats not a negative thing, and its not part of the dystopic view at a high level
(14:18:18) Dr Crawl: I mean, the dystopia stuff is supposed to be hitting you over the head
(14:18:36) HappyEpsilon: you have not explained how that part is positive
(14:18:43) HappyEpsilon: you're getting a D- on your paper
(14:18:44) Dr Crawl: he mentions orwell and huxley right off the bat
(14:18:46) Dr Crawl: and explicitly
(14:18:51) Dr Crawl: no, its not positive, either
(14:18:55) HappyEpsilon: (soap box)
(14:19:01) Dr Crawl: no, see, thats what YOU dont get
(14:19:05) Dr Crawl: its not soapbox
(14:19:10) Dr Crawl: because thats not the point of the story
(14:19:22) Dr Crawl: the point is that the whole teenage experience here has been reinterpreted
(14:19:26) HappyEpsilon: (14:14:50) Dr Crawl: it is subtle, as evidenced by thefact that you dont see the positive aspects of the tech shinning through the piece
(14:19:33) Dr Crawl: and the technology pervades the way they look at the world
(14:19:38) HappyEpsilon: you have not shown the positive aspects
(14:19:54) Dr Crawl: its positive simply because it allows reinterpretation
(14:20:02) HappyEpsilon: saying that technology makes interactions different is not the same claim as saying that this "story" has positive shit shining through
(14:20:03) Dr Crawl: but the existence of the tech is not itself a normative claim
(14:20:23) Dr Crawl: maybe something like this:
(14:20:31) HappyEpsilon: please explain how allowing reinterpretation is itself inherently positive
(14:20:46) Dr Crawl: its easy and cliche to talk about technology disenfranchizing everyone
(14:20:52) Dr Crawl: and turning everyone into zombies
(14:20:53) HappyEpsilon: sure is
(14:20:59) Dr Crawl: but that doesn't happen here
(14:21:03) HappyEpsilon: prove it
(14:21:14) Dr Crawl: he's still living something thats very clearly part of the teenage experience
(14:21:25) Dr Crawl: that has all the signs of teenagers
(14:21:35) Dr Crawl: morissey, jesus fucj
(14:21:51) Dr Crawl: and yet it is cast in terms that are extremely tech based
(14:22:01) HappyEpsilon: (a sign of the badness of the story, since it's not believable that he listens to morissey)
(14:22:01) Dr Crawl: so the tech itself is not the thing that leads to the dystopia
(14:22:24) Dr Crawl: no, wait
(14:22:29) HappyEpsilon: but it is part and parcel what creates the dystopia
(14:22:30) Dr Crawl: morissey wasn't explicitly referenced
(14:22:38) Dr Crawl: it was alluded to
(14:22:43) Dr Crawl: so thats not a fault with the narrative
(14:22:58) HappyEpsilon: no, so it's either plagiarism or sterling wants us to believe his narrator listens to morrisy
(14:23:00) Dr Crawl: thats whats called an allusion, harmony, and its a perfectly valid rhetorical device
(14:23:10) Dr Crawl: no, its not
(14:23:15) HappyEpsilon: if you know how to use it
(14:23:29) Dr Crawl: he is saying that morissey itself taps into that teenage experience, and it is reflected in the narrator as well
(14:23:30) HappyEpsilon: and he did a shitty job that isn't justified by the narrative
(14:24:03) Dr Crawl: no, he didnt'
(14:24:08) Dr Crawl: thats exactly what an allusion is
(14:24:36) HappyEpsilon: so i'm supposed to believe that morrissey IS teenage angst
(14:24:46) Dr Crawl: yes
(14:24:50) HappyEpsilon: morrisey is a universal constant for teenage angst
(14:24:52) HappyEpsilon: no, i don't
(14:24:53) Dr Crawl: if, that is, you pick up on the reference
(14:25:03) Dr Crawl: if you dont see the reference, those lines STILL bleed teenage angst
(14:25:15) HappyEpsilon: why use morissey?
(14:25:26) Dr Crawl: because its an allusion?
(14:25:34) HappyEpsilon: but what does it add to the story?
(14:25:48) Dr Crawl: it shows that he is still a teenager
(14:25:51) HappyEpsilon: allusion for allusion's sake?
(14:25:56) HappyEpsilon: we know he is a teenager
(14:25:58) Dr Crawl: and that nothing about the teenage experience has changed muich
(14:26:04) Dr Crawl: see, you can talk about dystopia
(14:26:09) Dr Crawl: but thats cliche
(14:26:19) HappyEpsilon: we don't need him to channel morrisey to get that
(14:26:24) Dr Crawl: but teenagers ALWAYS feel oppressed by their culture
(14:26:38) Dr Crawl: and so the tech is both dystopic
(14:26:48) Dr Crawl: while simultaneously not changing much about the fundamental human condition
(14:26:54) Dr Crawl: in stark contrast to Orwell and Huxley
(14:27:07) Dr Crawl: and so, it uses the same general and well worn themes
(14:27:15) Dr Crawl: to paint a new story about our relationship with the technology
(14:27:29) HappyEpsilon: that technology changes nothing about humans as humans?
(14:27:40) Dr Crawl: it changes these superficial things
(14:27:45) Dr Crawl: about MMOs and stuff
(14:27:51) HappyEpsilon: MMOs?
(14:28:02) Dr Crawl: online games
(14:28:41) Dr Crawl: it changes the terms we use to interprety our lives
(14:28:43) HappyEpsilon: you are totally ignoring the fact that the narrator IS oppressed more than teenagers before him
(14:28:52) HappyEpsilon: he has chips in him
(14:29:03) HappyEpsilon: he cannot find anywhere to go to have sex without being arrested
(14:29:15) HappyEpsilon: he is imprisoned by technology
(14:29:19) Dr Crawl: yeah
(14:29:23) HappyEpsilon: you are trying to make the story what you want it to be
(14:29:27) HappyEpsilon: but that isn't what it is
(14:29:34) Dr Crawl: but thats both realistic and quite probable
(14:29:47) Dr Crawl: and is really only an extension of the controls and limits we have always put on the youth
(14:30:12) HappyEpsilon: it's more than just an extension
(14:30:20) HappyEpsilon: it's a hyperprison
(14:30:20) Dr Crawl: the technology has changed these superficial aspects, yes
(14:30:23) Dr Crawl: and it is more controlling
(14:30:27) HappyEpsilon: that is not superficial
(14:30:34) Dr Crawl: but it doesn't put the teenage experience into a radically new light
(14:30:55) Dr Crawl: its not a hyper prison, exactly
(14:31:06) Dr Crawl: it just further contrains the possibilities of expression
(14:31:24) HappyEpsilon: he is forced to conform in ways that would have been impossible even ten years ago
(14:31:25) Dr Crawl: thus, the spray paint at the beginning
(14:31:32) Dr Crawl: sure, yeah
(14:31:35) Dr Crawl: but there have always been limits to expression
(14:31:41) HappyEpsilon: yes
(14:31:43) Dr Crawl: especially of teenage expression
(14:31:49) HappyEpsilon: but this is on a whole new radical level
(14:31:56) HappyEpsilon: and you are downplaying that aspect
(14:31:57) Dr Crawl: no, my point is that its not radical
(14:32:04) Dr Crawl: but its not radical
(14:32:08) HappyEpsilon: yes, it is
(14:32:18) HappyEpsilon: having a chip in you is radical indeed
(14:32:33) Dr Crawl: they have those now
(14:32:34) HappyEpsilon: there have always been constraints and repercussions for ignoring hte rules
(14:32:42) HappyEpsilon: but now they have no chance of getting away with anything
(14:32:44) Dr Crawl: parents can get their teen's car tagged
(14:32:46) HappyEpsilon: no chance in hell
(14:32:51) HappyEpsilon: now
(14:32:55) HappyEpsilon: and even that is different
(14:32:57) HappyEpsilon: you can go on foot
(14:32:59) HappyEpsilon: take a bus
(14:33:03) HappyEpsilon: use somoeone else's car
(14:33:07) Dr Crawl: yeah, well
(14:33:10) Dr Crawl: this is a short story
(14:33:20) HappyEpsilon: in this story, the second they do something, they get hauled off to juevi
(14:33:30) Dr Crawl: an interesting longer story would be a discussion of what the teenagers actually have to do to get around those controls
(14:33:36) HappyEpsilon: yes, and it's not as great or subtle or dimensional as you pretend it is
(14:33:56) Dr Crawl: I just spent half an hour talking about it
(14:33:59) HappyEpsilon: he tried and failed
(14:34:01) Dr Crawl: and pointing out things that you didn't see
(14:34:05) Dr Crawl: pff, whatever
(14:34:08) HappyEpsilon: oh no, i see them
(14:34:19) Dr Crawl: no, you didn't
(14:34:26) HappyEpsilon: you are trying to point out what you want the story to be and i am pointing out what is actually is
(14:34:31) Dr Crawl: you thought this was a cliche piece of soapboxing
(14:34:36) HappyEpsilon: i still do
(14:34:43) Dr Crawl: I'm not saying what I want this piece to be
(14:34:53) Dr Crawl: I'm pointing you right to it
(14:34:58) HappyEpsilon: no, you're saying hwat you read it to, which isn't what it is
(14:35:28) HappyEpsilon: i think you're onto something when you start talking about if it was longer
(14:35:41) HappyEpsilon: if it was longer, and possibly written by someone else, then it could be what you'
(14:35:44) HappyEpsilon: re readingt it to be
(14:35:50) HappyEpsilon: but that isn't what it is
(14:35:58) Dr Crawl: yes, thats exactly what it is
(14:36:02) HappyEpsilon: and if it's trying to be that, i guess that's something, but it fails
(14:36:06) Dr Crawl: I've read other stuff by sterling
(14:36:36) Dr Crawl: no, it only fails because people like you are just taking superficial glances at it and seeing 'orwell and huxley' and think you know what is going on
(14:36:44) HappyEpsilon: if he was any good, he wouldn't have to publish in sci-fi zines
(14:36:54) Dr Crawl: thats not a sci fi zine
(14:37:01) Dr Crawl: its actually a serious science journal
(14:37:09) Dr Crawl: its somewhat of a popular science journals
(14:37:15) Dr Crawl: but its not trash
(14:37:29) Dr Crawl: and they sometimes publish fiction pieces
(14:37:37) HappyEpsilon: here's what i'm saying, a literary fiction writer could mop the floor with sterling
(14:37:45) HappyEpsilon: that's what i'm saying
(14:37:53) HappyEpsilon: he's not very good
(14:38:06) Dr Crawl: its genre
(14:38:11) Dr Crawl: I never said anything otherwise
(14:38:11) HappyEpsilon: and the only reason anyone pays attention to him at all is because he's sci-fi
(14:38:15) Dr Crawl: but that doesn't mean shit
(14:38:18) Dr Crawl: you pretentious asshole
(14:38:19) HappyEpsilon: you said it was good
(14:38:23) HappyEpsilon: it's not good
(14:38:24) Dr Crawl: I'm done talking to you